Posts by jonathan dough

39

Luke 16:19-31 Sheol/Hades/Hell? literal vs. metaphor

by I_love_Jeff in

jehovah's witnesses say this is just a parable and that there is no eternal punishment.

for me, i do not believe in eternal punishment even though there is a lot of information in the bible which strongly favors eternal damnation: .

the bible refers to the fate of the unsaved with such fearful words as the following: .

jonathan dough

The pre-hellenistic interpretation of the few mentions of Sheol and the rephaim are vague and varied.

While the "interpretation" might have been vague or varied, the Scriptures referencing them are not. A reasonable person would be hard pressed to make the case for annihilationism, even in the OT, that at death all that is man becomes extinct as the JWs teach incorrectly, to be reasembled in the future, and that no conscious immaterial entity soul (spirit) survives the death of the body. Add the proof texts of the NT and annihilationism crumbles, as does soul materialism, a major platform of Watchtower pseudo-theology.

You forgot to mention the 'owb.' That the departed dead spirits in Sheol are conscious and communicate and think is reiterated at Isaiah 29:4 (KJV) where God warned the inhabitants of Jerusalem of their impending destruction, writing through the prophet, “Prostrate you shall speak from the earth, and from the base dust your words shall come. Your voice shall be like a ghost's (Hebrew, owb) (Vine's at 178), from the earth, and your words like chirping from the dust.” (NAB). According to Vine's, “Owb means 'spirit' (of the dead); necromancy, pit. This word usually represents the troubled spirit (or spirits) of the dead. This meaning appears unquestionably in Isaiah 29:4” (ibid.).

The Jehovah's Witnesses are technically “materialists” and subscribe to the doctrine of materialism (not to be confused with greed and the accumulation of things). Materialists deny body/soul dualism and the very existence of a “soul.” They believe all cognitive functions of thought, emotions, will and conscience, etc. are biological consequences of the material self, the body. When the body dies, that which traditionalists call the soul (spirit) simply vanishes and ceases to exist. “For the materialists, the soul, or the conscious life, is but a function of the organism, and necessarily perishes at death” (www.newadvent.org/cathen/07687a.htm).

Materialism is not unique to the Watchtower Society. It can be traced back to the Greek philosopher Epicurus (341-270 B.C.) who taught, among other things, that nothing exists except matter and space (PBD at 256). Epicurus believed that ... he could disprove the possibility of the soul's survival after death Stanford Encyclopedia of Philosophy, http://plato.stanford.edu/entries/epicurus/. Furthermore, “[t]he Epicurean school offers us the most complete and reasoned negation of immortality among ancient philosophers” (newadvent.org/cathen/07687 at 3). Epicureanism was widespread and popular during the time of Christ, and it is logical to conclude that the Jehovah's Witnesses' doctrine of materialism is rooted in this Greek philosophy.

Similarly, the ancient Sadducees, a religious party that existed during the time of Christ and which had members in the Jewish council called the Sanhedrin (which caused Christ to be put to death) denied “personal immortality, and retribution in a future life (PBD at 741), just like the Jehovah's Witnesses. “The doctrine of the Sadducees,” wrote Josephus,” is this, that souls die with the bodies,” (Antiq. Xviii. 1, 4); and again, “they also take away the belief of the immortal duration of the soul, and the punishments and rewards in Hades” (Jewish War, ii,i,14) (PBD at 741), just as the Jehovah's Witnesses teach.

In contemporary times the Jehovah's Witnesses are allied with secular atheists and other non-Christians on the margins who go to great lengths to deny the existence of the Christian immortal soul, or any soul for that matter, claiming that the soul is nothing more than the product of an organism, secretions of the brain and such, basing their claims in part on “neurophysiology,” (Restoring the Soul to Christianity, DR 502, J.P. Moreland, http://www.equip.org/articles/restoring-the-soul-to-christianity/).

Lastly, there has been a recent rash of materialist apologetics – evangelical preachers – who argue that Christian body/soul dualism is false, that a person is not a composite of body and soul, that the soul does not survive the death of the body, and the resurrected unsaved wicked are not punished eternally, or at all, but are simply extinguished, annihilated, being treated to a kinder, gentler, one-size-fits-all form of punishment. Of course it is no surprise that such modern-day preachers are attempting to overturn 2,000 years of Christian theology, for the Bible warns us that “in the last days, false teachers and false prophets will appear among us (2 Peter 2:1; Matthew 24:11).

http://www.144000.110mb.com/

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Post 607: Reject 607 BC if You TRULY Trust the Bible!!!

by Londo111 in

therefore, if the 70 years period is for the destruction of jerusalem and exile at babylon:.

if zedekiah had not rebelled against babylon, had he surrendered during the final siege that lasted two and a half years, then the destruction of jerusalem and the deportation need not have happened.

then in the jubilee year, they were set free and their hereditary land was returned to them.

jonathan dough

Daniel was fully aware of Leviticus 26:32 - 35 which the Chronicler quoted in part at 2 Chronicles 36:20, 21 where Moses wrote that the desolation would end while the exiles were still in Babylon, in the land of their enemies, not when they returned. He would not have understood the seventy years to have ended two years in the future when they returned. Once again, the time frame falls short of seventy years.

In addition to the same reasons stated above, the author of 2 Chronicles 36 could not have meant that “All the days of laying desolated it kept the Sabbath, to fulfill seventy years” referred to seventy uninhabited years of devastation beginning with Jerusalem’s destruction. Nowhere does the Chronicler claim that the land would be, or was, uninhabited. Desolated, yes, but not uninhabited. The reference to keeping the land Sabbath is metaphor - the land was unproductive and rested, not uninhabited. In fact, “Sabbath” connotes a human condition or presence, defined as “the day of rest and religious observance of the Jews….” Paying off its sabbaths is akin to paying off a loan, which was fulfilled, or accomplished, or ended, or finished, while the exiles were still in the land of their enemies, Babylon. The fulfillment of seventy years at 2 Chronicles 26 referred to the conclusion of the desolation and sabbatical-like condition which began with Babylon’s fall and Persia’s rise to power. Ezra was not saying the land was desolated without inhabitant for seventy years ending in 537 B.C.E.

It bears repeating, because the "sabbaths” were paid off while the exiles were still in Babylon the author could not have meant that the reference to seventy years meant that Judah lie desolate without inhabitant exactly seventy years ending upon the exiles’ physical return in 537 B.C.E. It’s impossible because it falls short. Remember, the chronicler also had access to Jeremiah’s prophecy. He knew the fulfillment and timing of seventy years was tied directly to the fall of the Babylonian Empire and the rise of Persian royalty.

http://www.144000.110mb.com/607/i-6.html

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Luke 16:19-31 Sheol/Hades/Hell? literal vs. metaphor

by I_love_Jeff in

jehovah's witnesses say this is just a parable and that there is no eternal punishment.

for me, i do not believe in eternal punishment even though there is a lot of information in the bible which strongly favors eternal damnation: .

the bible refers to the fate of the unsaved with such fearful words as the following: .

jonathan dough

Apparently you failed to understand that I leap-frogged to a time before the OT was written to show the likely ROOTS of the beliefs found in the OT.

I'm not denying that the OT seemingly indicates a belief in the soul: in fact, I'm showing that such beliefs were NOT UNCOMMON in the ancient world, and even predated the Bible. Hence the concepts found inside the Bible cannot be attributed to Divine Inspiration, unless you feel that the "Divine Inspiration" was provided by a God named Atum to the Egyptians, and the Hebrews simply recycled their "inspiration".

That's utter nonsense and illogical. Just because earlier people believed in departed souls before the Bible was written doesn't mean those relevant verses weren't inspired by God. If anything it indicates that God affirms what pagans believed, if that belief coincides with Scripture. The belief in the afterlife even predates the Egyptians in many other cultures because it is so obvious, one of those given concepts that most people easily believe in it. Following your reasoning there is no creator, either, no God, because ancient peoples before the time of Moses believed in a God/creator however that is defined. And there was no flood because the flood account in the Epic in Gilgamesh was written before Genesis. It's purely speculative to assume that the Bible writers were inspired by earlier pagans. You have not proof, and lack any causal connection.Similarly, just because Plato held ideas of body/soul dualism doesn't mean Christ was wrong, or the other NT writers, in affirming that fact.

http://www.144000.110mb.com/

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Luke 16:19-31 Sheol/Hades/Hell? literal vs. metaphor

by I_love_Jeff in

jehovah's witnesses say this is just a parable and that there is no eternal punishment.

for me, i do not believe in eternal punishment even though there is a lot of information in the bible which strongly favors eternal damnation: .

the bible refers to the fate of the unsaved with such fearful words as the following: .

jonathan dough

And if that's not enough, try this on:

One common misconception is that Sheol (Hebrew) is a place where only the wicked, unredeemed go, but that is not the case (PBD at 784). The grieving patriarch Jacob was inconsolable when told of his son Joseph's (fabricated) death, stating, “No, I will go down mourning to my son in the nether world (Sheol) (Genesis 37:35). Jacob, son of Isaac and father of twelve sons who in turn would father the twelve tribes of Israel, believed his eleventh son, Joseph, was dead and departed to Sheol, not extinct, and his grief was such that he wished to join him. And Job, while enduring excruciating torment, pleaded to God for shelter in the nether world of Sheol. He did not want to go there to be tormented further, but to escape the agony and torment he was suffering on earth, and then return: “Oh, that you would hide me in the nether world and keep me sheltered till your wrath is past,” (Job 14:13). His agony was so great he wondered why he wasn't delivered a stillborn baby; then he would find rest in Sheol:” For then I would have lain down and been quiet; I would have slept; then I would have been at rest. (Job 3:13, ESV). One cannot be extinct and non-existent and yet enjoy restful sleep and later return to the world when God's wrath is over. It's not possible.

King David was fully aware that Sheol was a place to which souls depart, writing, “For you will not abandon my soul to Sheol, or let your holy one see corruption,” (Psalm 16:10, ESV). He repeatedly speaks of Sheol as a place, as a concrete figure of speech, as a destination from which souls are brought up, and prevented from going down into (see Psalms 139:8, 49:15, 86:13). God, through David, would never have uttered these words if no such place existed where souls go. Sheol is a reality, a destination for the departed dead made abundantly clear at Psalm 139:8: “If I make my bed in Sheol, behold, you are there.” Annihilationism cannot be read into these verses.

Rachel cannot be non-existent as her voice is heard in Ramah: “Thus says the Lord, “A voice is heard in Ramah, lamentation and bitter weeping. Rachel is weeping for her children; she refuses to be comforted for her children, because they are no more (Jeremiah 31:15, ESV). Ramah is “a village about five miles north of Jerusalem, where Rachel was buried (1 Samuel 10, 2). Rachel is said to mourn for her children since she was the ancestress of Ephraim, the chief of the northern tribes. Matthew 2:18 applies this verse to the slaughter of the innocent by Herod” (NAB notes, 31-15).

And the great prophet Ezekiel was instructed by Almighty God to lament the wicked of Egypt destined for the pit of the nether world. A place in Sheol “shall be made them for all their hordes” (Ezekiel 32:20, NAB). These Egyptian hordes cannot be non-existent because “from the midst of the nether world the mighty warriors shall speak to Egypt: “Whom do you excel in beauty? Come down, you and your allies, lie with the uncircumcised, with those slain by the sword” (vv. 20-21). Those that go down to the pit are not only conscious, but experience emotion, as they “bear their disgrace with those who go down to the pit” (Ezekiel 32:24, NAB).

http://www.soul.host-ed.me/i-soul-2.html

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Luke 16:19-31 Sheol/Hades/Hell? literal vs. metaphor

by I_love_Jeff in

jehovah's witnesses say this is just a parable and that there is no eternal punishment.

for me, i do not believe in eternal punishment even though there is a lot of information in the bible which strongly favors eternal damnation: .

the bible refers to the fate of the unsaved with such fearful words as the following: .

jonathan dough

If you want to believe in old 4,000 yr old Egyptian (probably older) myths in 2012, do so at your own peril....

I don't regard Scripture as myth, and it is apparent you haven't bothered to read the information here:

http://www.soul.host-ed.me/index.html

Had you done so you would have seen that these two verses I cited were just the tip fo the ice berg and many other verses substantiate the existence of the soul (spirit) in both the OT and the NT. The evidence is overwhelming. Here are a few more proof texts:

The psalmist at Psalm 88:11 “seeks to persuade God to act out of concern for divine honor: the shades (rephaim) give you no worship, so keep me alive to offer you praise” (NAB notes 8, 11-13). “Do you work wonders for the dead? Do the shades (rephaim) arise and praise you?” Had the shades (rephaim) not existed in Sheol this question could not have been asked. Far from non-existent, the departed dead, the wicked unredeemed shades, are impotent with respect to gratitude, praise and hope toward God, “For Sheol does not thank you, death does not praise you; those that go down to the pit do not hope for your faithfulness” (Isaiah 38:18, ESV).

For the wicked, their weakened condition is likened to “forgetfulness,” where God works no wonders for the shades (rephaim) who are unwilling and unable to express their love for God. “Is your love proclaimed in the grave, your fidelity in the tomb? Are faithfulness in Abaddon? Are your wonders known in the darkness, or your righteousness in the land of forgetfulness?” (Psalm 88:10-12, ESV). The resurrection of the dead (as figuratively applied to the restoration of Israel in messianic times (NAB notes) envisions conscious and singing shades in the land of the departed (the netherworld) which gives birth to newly resurrected bodies, shades that are reunited with risen corpses: “But your dead shall shall live, their corpses shall rise; awake and sing, you who lie in the dust. For your dew is a dew of light, and the land of shades (rephaim) gives birth” (Isaiah 26;19, NAB).

Even Job, a blameless and upright man, acknowledged the existence of the departed dead, the shades, in Sheol, where, in his reply to Boldad's third speech he said, “The shades (rephaim) beneath writhe in terror, the waters and their inhabitants. Naked before him is the nether world (Sheol), and Abaddon has no covering.” (Job 26:5,6, NAB). Not only do shades exist, but they exhibit emotions and tremble.

Similarly, the inspired writers of the Book of Proverbs were fully aware that the departed dead, the shades, reside in Sheol, the nether world; they were not annihilated, they did not become extinct at death. Speaking of the ways of the adulteress, Proverbs 2:18 provides: “For her path sinks down to death, and her footsteps lead to the shades (rephaim) (NAB). Referring to those who live a life of folly, Proverbs 9:18 warns, “Little he knows that the shades are there, that in the depths of the nether world (sheol) are her guests” (NAB). And Proverbs 21:16 is an unambiguous warning, “The man who strays from the way of good sense will abide in the assembly of the shades (rephaim).

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Luke 16:19-31 Sheol/Hades/Hell? literal vs. metaphor

by I_love_Jeff in

jehovah's witnesses say this is just a parable and that there is no eternal punishment.

for me, i do not believe in eternal punishment even though there is a lot of information in the bible which strongly favors eternal damnation: .

the bible refers to the fate of the unsaved with such fearful words as the following: .

jonathan dough

jd- To say it is a fact are you communicating with these souls in some fashion or can you offer some proof you have documented.

The documentation is the Bible, which is sufficient. Any claim by someone that they have communicated with them is never proof to anyone else.

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Revelation 19:1 omitted from NWT index?

by DATA-DOG in

i am just curious about something.

the term great crowd of other sheep does not exist in the scriptures.

while looking into the great crowd of revelation i noticed that revelation 19:1 is not included in the index under the term great crowd.

jonathan dough

The Great Crowd of Revelation 7:9 standing before God’s throne in heaven and before the Lamb is not standing on earth merely in an ‘approved condition’ but is in heaven contrary to the Jehovah's Witnesses' teachings.

First, Revelation 7:9 provides: “After these things I saw, and, look, a great crowd which no man was able to number, out of all nations and tribes and peoples and tongues, standing before the throne and before the Lamb ….” As with the Great Crowd, Revelation 14:1 also has the 144,000 standing in heaven with the Lamb, Jesus Christ. “And I saw, and, look! The Lamb standing upon Mount Zion, and with him a hundred and forty-four thousand.”

The Greek verb histemi - to stand or standing - is used for both groups of individuals, but whereas the 144,000 are regarded as physically (as spiritual creatures) standing in the direct presence of the Lamb in heaven, the Jehovah’s Witnesses believe the Great Crowd on the other hand are actually on earth and stand only metaphorically before God; they are standing in an approved condition, or position, in the sight of God only. The Jehovah's Witnesses are aware of their conundrum.

This poses the question: if the “great crowd” are persons who gain salvation and remain on earth, how could they be said to be ‘standing before God’s throne and before the Lamb’? (Re 7:9) The position of ‘standing’ is sometimes used in the Bible to indicate the holding of a favored or approved position in the eyes of one in whose presence the individual or group stands. (Ps 1:5; 5:5; Pr 22:29, AT; Lu 1:19). In fact, in the previous chapter of Revelation, “the kings of the earth and the top-ranking ones and the military commanders and the rich and the strong ones and every slave and every free person” are depicted as seeking to hide themselves “from the face of the One seated on the throne and from the wrath of the Lamb, because the great day of their wrath has come, and who is able to stand?” Re 6:15-17; compare Lu 21:36). It thus appears that the “great crowd” is formed of those persons who have been preserved during that time of wrath and who have been able to “stand” as approved by God and the Lamb. (Insight, 997).

However, it is noteworthy that the definition of histemi (standing or to stand) does not contain the notion of a ‘favored or approved position’ or condition according to the entry for histemi or a derivative paristemi, in Vine’s Complete Expository Dictionary of Old and New Testament Words (Vine’s Greek Dictionary). And as to its application at Revelation 6:15-17, which they cite, those depicted as hiding themselves are about to be destroyed, so they can hardly be said to be standing or seeking to stand in an "approved condition" before God. Other translations render the word “withstand.” (NAB).

Secondly, the Great Crowd cannot be standing in an approved condition on earth because Revelation 9:1-6 details the account of the Fifth Trumpet where locusts, given the power of scorpions, are instructed to torment and harm all those on earth who do not have the “seal of God on their foreheads.”

1 And the fifth angel blew his trumpet. And I saw a star that had fallen from heaven to the earth, and the key of the pit of the abyss was given him. 2 And he opened the pit of the abyss, and smoke ascended out of the pit as the smoke of a great furnace, and the sun was darkened, also the air, by the smoke of the pit. 3 And out of the smoke locusts came forth upon the earth; and authority was given them, the same authority as the scorpions of the earth have. 4 And they were told to harm no vegetation of the earth nor any green thing nor any tree, but only those men who do not have the seal of God on their foreheads. 5 And it was granted the [locusts], not to kill them, but that these should be tormented five months, and the torment upon them was as torment by a scorpion when it strikes a man. 6 And in those days the men will seek death but will by no means find it, and they will desire to die but death keeps fleeing from them. (Rev. 9:1-6 NWT).

According to the Jehovah’s Witnesses only the 144,000 have the seal of God on their foreheads, not the Great Crowd or anyone else.

2 And I saw another angel ascending from the sunrising, having a seal of [the] living God; and he cried with a loud voice to the four angels to whom it was granted to harm the earth and the sea, 3 saying: “Do not harm the earth or the sea or the trees, until after we have sealed the slaves of our God in their foreheads.” 4 And I heard the number of those who were sealed, a hundred and forty-four thousand, sealed out of every tribe of the sons of Israel:…. (Rev. 7:2-4 NWT)

Because the torment on the Great Crowd and others is to be so great that they will seek death it is difficult to imagine that the Great Crowd is standing on earth in an approved condition before God.

Third, one of the twenty-four elders in heaven upon seeing the Great Crowd comments “where did they come from?” (Rev. 7:13), which suggests they arrived from someplace else, namely earth.

Fourth, the Jehovah’s Witnesses deny the Great Crowd’s presence in heaven because “Revelation does not say of them, as it does of the 144,000 that they are bought from the earth” to be with Christ on heavenly Mount Zion. Rev 14:1-3.” (Reasoning, 167) But the Jehovah’s Witnesses are reading Scripture too narrowly and assume that the Great Crowd and 144,000 are separate. If, as mentioned above, a strong argument can be made that the 144,000 and the Great Crowd are the same - a qualitative identification of that large multitude - then the Great Crowd has indeed been bought from the earth because they are the 144,000 and represent all Christian people, which is the view taken by the Roman Catholic Church (Revelation 14:4, notes NAB).

Furthermore, it is not the 144,000 alone who were ransomed or bought by Jesus’ blood. The Jehovah’s Witnesses distinguish the Great Crowd from the 144,000 by the fact that the Great Crowd were of all nations, tribes, peoples and tongues. But according to Revelation 5:9 this includes the 144,000 who also are of all nations, tribes, peoples and tongues. (Reasoning, 168).

9 And they sing a new song, saying: “You are worthy to take the scroll and open its seals, because you were slaughtered and with your blood you bought persons for God out of every tribe and tongue and people and nation, 10 and you made them to be a kingdom and priests to our God, and they are to rule as kings over the earth.” (Rev. 5:9 NWT).

Lastly, Revelation 7:15 makes it abundantly clear that the Great Crowd, their robes also washed by the blood of Christ, is in heaven because that is where God’s temple and his throne are; the Great Crowd is seen in His temple where they worship Him day and night.

15 That is why they are before the throne of God; and they are rendering him sacred service day and night in his temple; and the One seated on the throne will spread his tent over them. (Rev. 7:15 NWT).

The psalmist at Psalm 11:4 tells us where God’s temple is and where his throne is, and by virtue of Revelation 7:15 we know where the Great Crowd stands worshiping the Almighty, namely, in heaven.

“Jehovah is in his temple,
Jehovah - in the heavens is his throne.”
http://144000.110mb.com/144000/i-2.html#III

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Revelation 19:1 omitted from NWT index?

by DATA-DOG in

i am just curious about something.

the term great crowd of other sheep does not exist in the scriptures.

while looking into the great crowd of revelation i noticed that revelation 19:1 is not included in the index under the term great crowd.

jonathan dough

*** rs p. 168 par. 1 Heaven ***

The “great crowd in heaven” referred to at Revelation 19:1, 6 is not the same as the “great crowd” of Revelation 7:9. The ones in heaven are not described as being “out of all nations” or as ascribing their salvation to the Lamb; they are angels. The expression “great crowd” is used in a variety of contexts in the Bible.—Mark 5:24; 6:34; 12:37.

Regardless of how the JWs misinterpret Rev. 19:1, the Great Crowd cannot live in a paradise on earth ruled over by an elite 144,000 from heaven. Their theories are baseless. Psalm 9:6 completely undermines the Jehovah's Witnesses' multiple salvation plans. They believe that a ruling elite of 144,000 Jehovah's Witnesses will eventually reign from heaven over a vast multitude of converted Jehovah's Witnesses on earth. With respect to all dead people, it provides: "Their love and their hate and their envy have already perished, and they have no more forever any share in all that is done under the sun." (Psalm 9:6, RSV) (emphasis added).

For the majority of mankind, the Jehovah's Witnesses' salvation mantra is, “You can live forever in paradise on earth.” But Ecclesiastes 9:6 just quoted makes that impossible. If the dead “never again have part in anything that is done under the sun (on earth), they cannot live forever in paradise on earth. Mainstream Christianity averts this conundrum because they recognize that the Christian's supernatural reward is in heaven for all redeemed believers. It most certainly is not limited to 144,000 Jehovah's Witnesses.

Furthermore, Because the earth shall be destroyed, the resurrected, and the Great Crowd, cannot be reigned, or ruled, over by the 144,000 from heaven. The Greek word basileuo “to reign,” does not only mean to “rule over a people.” It is often used in other ways, such as to “reign in life” (Rom. 5:17) where ‘shall reign in life’ indicates the activity of life in fellowship with Christ in His sovereign power, reaching its fullness hereafter; 1 Cor. 4:8…” (Vine’s, 52). One can also reign over sin (Rom. 6:12). Grace can also reign (Rom. 5:21). With this in mind it does not automatically or logically follow that there must be someone over whom the 144,000 reign on earth in the same way that contemporary governments rule over a people in today’s world.

As a matter of fact, even though the Jehovah's Witnesses claim that the Bible does not tell us what the 144,000 will do after the thousand year reign is over, Revelation 22:3,4 informs us that God's servants will worship him and "shall reign forever and ever." But reign over who? They claim that at that time no one will stand between God and man, most certainly not Jesus (Insight, 170); the kingdom will have been handed over, death will be no more and man will be forever perfect.

But if that is true the word "reign" cannot mean to rule over humans on earth, especially on an earth destined for fire and complete destruction which is made clear by 2 Peter 3:10,11: "But the day of the Lord will come like a thief, and then the heavens will pass away with a mighty roar and the elements will be dissolved by fire and the earth and everything in it will be found out. ... everything is to be dissolved this way," (NAB; "Total destruction is assumed (11)," notes 3,10). "...the heavens will be destroyed by burning, and the elements will melt with intense heat" (2 Peter 3:12). "But by His word the present heavens and earth are being reserved for fire, kept for the day of judgment and destruction of ungodly men" (2 Peter 3:7). Peter's warning reemphasized Zephaniah's warning, where the ancient prophet transmitted the Almighty's words, "I will utterly consume all things from off the face of the ground, saith Jehovah. I will consume man and beast; I will consume the birds of the heavens, and the fishes of the sea, and the stumbling blocks with the wicked; and I will cut off man from off the face of the ground, saith Jehovah" (Zephaniah 1:2,3)

Complete destruction of man on earth is intended. " Their blood will be poured out like dust and their entrails like dung. 18 Neither their silver nor their gold will be able to save them on the day of the LORD’s wrath.” In the fire of his jealousy the whole earth will be consumed, for he will make a sudden end of all who live on the earth (Zephaniah 1:17, 18). The Jehovah's Witnesses theory that they alone, their great crowd, will survive Armageddon and be ruled from heaven by the 144,000 is simply not in accord with Scripture.

Granted, the Jehovah's Witnesses don't believe the earth will be destroyed and base this teaching in large part on Psalm 37:29 where the psalmist wrote, "The just will possess the land (earth) and live in it forever." However, the earth "wears out like a garment (Isa. 51:6), so the word "forever" is hyperbole, and nothing here indicates that there won't be a hiatus, or break, in the earth's habitation. Psalm 37:29 does not say man will inherit the earth continuously without interruption, and Revelation 21:10,27 suggests that reconstituted, glorified man, without the warts, will come back down out of heaven sometime in the future: "He took me in spirit to a great high mountain and showed me the holy city Jerusalem coming down out of heaven from God." "Only those will enter whose names are written in the Lamb's book of life."

Actually, the earth has experienced significant disruptions evidenced by the annihilation of the dinosaurs and great flood of Noah's day. Remember, we are dealing with geologic time, and cycling through another ice age that would wipe off the post-apocalyptic mess left in the wake of Armageddon is entirely within reason; it is more reasonable than handing the Great Crowd brooms and haz-mat suits and ordering them to restore the earth into a paradise.

More to the point is Peter's comparison of the earth's pending fiery destruction to the great flood which is a real, not metaphorical, example of earth's fate as detailed at 2 Peter 3:5-13: "They deliberately ignore the fact that the heavens existed of old and earth was formed out of water and through water by the word of God; through these the world that then existed was destroyed, deluged with water. The present heavens and earth have been reserved by the same word of fire kept for the day of judgment and of destruction of the godless." Jesus likewise made it known that ultimate destruction will be modeled after the destruction of Sodom and Gomorrah, where Luke 17:29 makes it abundantly clear God destroyed them all. That man's governments are changed in the process goes without saying. Remember, "...he was seated on the throne and said, "Behold, I am making all things new. (Rev. 21:5).

To "reign," then, must mean to reign in life or over sin, and old-world government models such as king David's rule over God's people do not necessarily apply to a new world, a new earth and a new creation. As a point of interest, this is the meaning ascribed to the concept of "reign" by the Catholic church.

Like other numerical values in this book, the thousand years are not to be taken literally; they symbolize the long period of time between the chaining up of Satan (a symbol for Christ's resurrection victory over death and the forces of evil) and the end of the world. During this time God's people share in the glorious reign of God that is present to them by virtue of their baptismal victory over death and sin; cf Rom 6, 1-8; Jn 5, 24-25; 16, 33; 1 Jn 3,14; Eph 2,1. (NAB, note Rev. 20:1-6)

Finally, if the Great Crowd is in heaven and not on earth as the Jehovah's Witnesses claim, the 144,000 cannot rule over them as earthly subjects.

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Luke 16:19-31 Sheol/Hades/Hell? literal vs. metaphor

by I_love_Jeff in

jehovah's witnesses say this is just a parable and that there is no eternal punishment.

for me, i do not believe in eternal punishment even though there is a lot of information in the bible which strongly favors eternal damnation: .

the bible refers to the fate of the unsaved with such fearful words as the following: .

jonathan dough

'The supernatural order for departed humans does in fact exist today' uh ok

As a matter of fact it does. Humans do have souls, and when people die and cease to exist, those immaterial entities, the self, the soul (spirit) depart to the intermediate state awaiting the resurrection. This is mainstream, traditional Christian theology. The Old Testament also has plenty of proof to substantiate this, as does the New Testament. You're a Jew, or share many of their beliefs. I'm surprised you don't agree. You believe in the rephaim, don't you? How about the owb?

Words other than nephesh in the Old Testament are used when referring to departed souls, such as rephaim, often translated in the English as 'shades' or 'healers.' Rephaim are ghosts according to Vine's Complete Expository Dictionary of the Old and New Testament Words (Vine's) and very much in existence according to the Old Testament as seen by Isaiah 14:9-10 (ESV), which completely disproves the Jehovah's Witnesses' theory that only extinction follows man at death. In speaking of the king of Babylon, Isaiah wrote:

9 Sheol beneath is stirred up
to meet you when you come;
it rouses the shades to greet you,
all who were leaders of the earth;
it raises from their thrones
all who were kings of the nations.
10 All of them will answer
and say to you:
‘ You too have become as weak as we!
You have become like us!’

This passage in and of itself proves the Jehovah's Witnesses wrong. Here, the shades obviously exist and were not extinguished into nothingness. They even speak, and therefore think. The Watchtower leadership is fully aware of this insurmountable obstacle to their theology. To circumvent the problem they translate rephaim as “those impotent in death,” but this does not help them in the slightest because it only describes one condition or attribute of the departed, that they are in a weakened condition, as seen by the answer the shades gave - that the king of Babylon would become weak like they had become. Nothing in these verses remotely suggests that these rephaim, or shades, don't exist; it's impossible, even if the shades are impotent with respect to their powers. Impotent does not mean annihilated, it does not mean nonexistent. Furthermore, Almighty God, YHWH, does not lie; his word is truth (Titus 1:2; John 17:17). If shades do not exist in the nether world of Sheol, he would never convey to his people that they did, and that they spoke and are conscious. God is telling us in no uncertain terms that an immaterial, conscious entity survives the death of the body.

That the departed dead spirits in Sheol are conscious and communicate and think is reiterated at Isaiah 29:4 (KJV) where God warned the inhabitants of Jerusalem of their impending destruction, writing through the prophet, “Prostrate you shall speak from the earth, and from the base dust your words shall come. Your voice shall be like a ghost's (Hebrew, owb) (Vine's at 178), from the earth, and your words like chirping from the dust.” (NAB). According to Vine's, “Owb means 'spirit' (of the dead); necromancy, pit. This word usually represents the troubled spirit (or spirits) of the dead. This meaning appears unquestionably in Isaiah 29:4” (ibid.).

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39

Luke 16:19-31 Sheol/Hades/Hell? literal vs. metaphor

by I_love_Jeff in

jehovah's witnesses say this is just a parable and that there is no eternal punishment.

for me, i do not believe in eternal punishment even though there is a lot of information in the bible which strongly favors eternal damnation: .

the bible refers to the fate of the unsaved with such fearful words as the following: .

jonathan dough

http://www.soul.host-ed.me/index.html

The Jehovah's Witnesses teach that the story of the rich man (Dives) and Lazarus is a parable where the rich man represents the Pharisees, and Lazarus the common Jewish people who repented and became followers of Jesus. Their deaths were merely symbolic and represent a change in circumstances, a role reversal for the favored and despised (Reasoning at 175).

19 “There was a rich man who was clothed in purple and fine linen and who feasted sumptuously every day. 20 And at his gate was laid a poor man named Lazarus, covered with sores, 21 who desired to be fed with what fell from the rich man's table. Moreover, even the dogs came and licked his sores. 22 The poor man died and was carried by the angels to Abraham's side.[a] The rich man also died and was buried, 23 and in Hades, being in torment, he lifted up his eyes and saw Abraham far off and Lazarus at his side. 24 And he called out, ‘Father Abraham, have mercy on me, and send Lazarus to dip the end of his finger in water and cool my tongue, for I am in anguish in this flame.’ 25 But Abraham said, ‘Child, remember that you in your lifetime received your good things, and Lazarus in like manner bad things; but now he is comforted here, and you are in anguish. 26 And besides all this, between us and you a great chasm has been fixed, in order that those who would pass from here to you may not be able, and none may cross from there to us.’ 27 And he said, ‘Then I beg you, father, to send him to my father's house— 28 for I have five brothers[b]—so that he may warn them, lest they also come into this place of torment.’ 29 But Abraham said, ‘They have Moses and the Prophets; let them hear them.’ 30 And he said, ‘No, father Abraham, but if someone goes to them from the dead, they will repent.’ 31 He said to him, ‘If they do not hear Moses and the Prophets, neither will they be convinced if someone should rise from the dead.’” (ESV)

The Jehovah's Witnesses are correct in recognizing the symbolic role reversal between the rich man and Lazarus. The reversed conditions the two men find themselves in are a stark forewarning, and mirror the beatitudes at Luke 6:20, 21; 24, 25. “Blessed are you who are now hungry, for you will be satisfied. Woe to you who are rich, for you have received your consolation. Woe to you who are filled now, for you will be hungry.” But the story addresses many other issues other than a role reversal, and is packed with useful insight, the most obvious being that the departed, conscious, dead like the rich man and Lazarus, and Abraham, reside in an intermediate state.

Actually, mainstream theology agrees, somewhat, that verses 30 and 31 pertain to the Christian message. The Roman Catholic Church and other denominations understand these verses to be “[a] foreshadowing … of the rejection of the call to repentance even after Jesus' resurrection” (NAB notes 16, 30-31). But that's not the sole lesson to be learned. One of the more salient points made is a stark warning to take care of the needy and desperate if it is within one's means, or you might suffer the same fate as the compassion-less rich man.

Even though most consider the story to be a parable, some interpret the rendering literally, and the Jehovah's Witnesses attack such literalists, assuming that all Christians regard it as historical fact, which they don't all believe to be so. Even if it were meant to be taken literally, which is possible, the Jehovah's Witnesses attempt to strike it down in its entirety simply because it contains metaphor within the story. In other words, they argue the story can't be real because those enjoying divine favor could not literally fit on Abraham's bosom, and a mere drop of water could never quench the rich man's thirst or survive the parched literal heat of the literal burning fire (Reasoning at 174-175). But these illustrations are metaphor or figures of speech peculiar to the times. Lying in Abraham's bosom is a term of endearment, representing a special relationship (“The Son, who is in the bosom of the Father (John 1:18). The drop of water on the tip of Lazarus' finger symbolizes the abject desperation and despair the tormented rich man is enduring – his anguish is such that he'll “take anything.” And the burning flames represent the punishment awaiting those doomed to perdition. (While some Christian denominations continue to believe the fires of hell are literal flames of fire, conservatives generally do not.) The point is, even a literal translation of the story containing figures of speech and metaphor to enhance the meaning would pass muster.

We know dead Lazarus and the rich man are in the intermediate state because the rich man refers to his five living brothers still on earth, so it must take place prior to the resurrection. As a parable the story is no less truthful as were all of Christ's parables, and this one is meant to convey important scriptural truth. Jesus never lied or mislead his people, which is what he would have done with this story if all men's souls (spirits) are extinguished at death.

As stated, the story of postmortem Lazarus and the rich man illustrates that departed souls are conscious and can experience comfort, torment and anguish, and they are capable of communication. It tells us Abraham is alive, just as Jesus reiterated what God said in the present tense, “I am the God of Abraham, and the God of Isaac, and the God of Jacob.” He is not the God of the dead,” Jesus said, “but of the living” (Matthew 22:32, ESV) (“to [God] all are alive”) (Luke 20:38, NAB). Here God is speaking of two things, a) the resurrection, and b) the living soul (spirit) that animates the body, the soul being the true person.

While the general discussion of Matthew 22:32 pertained to the future resurrection, it also refers to those in the intermediate state; it is only the dead physical body that is resurrected, to be rejoined and animated by the soul. But it is the soul (spirit) which God regards as being presently “alive” because a “body without a spirit is dead.” (James 2:26). Because God and Jesus spoke in the present tense of the departed as living, these specific words could not have referred to a future resurrection but dealt, specifically and by necessity, with souls in the intermediate state which play a vital role in the future resurrection; the eventual soul (spirit) and body reunion.

But the primary reason the Jehovah's Witnesses view the parable of the rich man and Lazarus as such a threat to their theology and dismiss it so casually is because it clearly states that man will have had sufficient warning in the present age (PBD at 480), and because the story teaches that man's destiny is settled at death. There is no “second chance” (ibid.). “Human beings die once, then after this the judgment (Hebrews 9:27). This Bible teaching is in direct contradiction to the Jehovah's Witnesses' salvation plan (one of several) which is premised on a “second chance” at salvation for virtually all of mankind, most of whom will supposedly be resurrected on earth where they will reside during the 1,000-year-reign.

There is no second chance, which is one of the messages of the rich man and Lazarus, and the Jehovah's Witnesses don't want to hear that. “Scripture represents the state of the lost after death as a fixed state,” (Luke 16:19-31) (PBD at 381). “We must all appear before the judgment seat of Christ so that each one may receive recompense according to what he did in the body, whether good or evil” (2 Corinthians 5:10). “Now is the day of salvation” (2 Corinthians 6:2). “The Lord knows how to keep the unrighteous under punishment for the day of judgment (2 Peter 2:9). Obviously, there is no second chance or probationary period. The final judgment will be determined by what man does in this life, in this body, not some future state of existence (see also Matthew 7:22,23; 25:41-46).

In this regard the story of the rich man and Lazarus is toxic to the Watchtower Society and completely undermines their religion, which explains their motive for dismissing it, including the all-too-obvious underlying message that, like Lazarus and the rich man, the departed conscious dead migrate to an intermediate state; they are not annihilated, they do not become extinguished. The supernatural order for departed humans does in fact exist today.

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